Find Your Dream Job Podcast, Ep. 061
Why Your Resume Isn’t Getting You Interviews, with Andrea Gerson
Episode Description:
|
Can your resume engage a human resource manager and make them want to read more? Or, does it just blend in with all other task-oriented resumes they receive? This week’s guest expert Andrea Gerson has seen thousands of resumes, and shares her best practices to help you get the attention of your intended employer. She says, “It can be challenging for people to quantify what they have done, and to brag about their contributions.” Most people are encouraged to be humble and not to boast about their accomplishments, but a job seeker can miss out on a great career opportunity if they don’t properly quantify their competencies and qualify their contributions on their resume. Use these resume tips to help you get an interview:
1. Use the primary real estate (top third) of your resume to engage your reader. 2. Add quantitative information about your high-level accomplishments that pertain to the job for which you are applying. 3. Include your goals and intentions, and how they may benefit the prospective company. 4. Add pertinent information in bite-sized pieces, and in concise bullet points. 5. Use the STAR Framework, and be consistent when formatting your resume. You have one chance to make an impact to get the job you want. Make the most of it! Andrea Gerson helps professionals find clarity, confidence, and a renewed sense of energy in their work. Andrea is the founder of Resume Scripter. She has created and edited resumes and cover letters for more than 3,000 people. And, her client’s organizations have included Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Bloomberg, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase, the United Nations, and The Red Cross. |
"Your resume may be doing a poor job of organizing, describing and presenting your accomplishments." |
Episode Transcript:
Mac Prichard
I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List. I'm joined by my co host, Ben Forstag, our Managing Director and Jenna Forstrom, our Community Manager. This week we're talking about why your resume might not be getting you interviews. Our show was brought to you by Hack the Hidden Job Market, the new online course now available for Mac's List. As many as 8 out of 10 job openings never get advertised - is your dream job one of them? Learn how to uncover hidden jobs and get noticed by the hiring managers who fail them, visit Macslist.org/course.
You've just sent your resume off for a job you really want. And you don't worry when you don't get a reply that first day or the next. After all, it takes time to review resumes and pick the people who get interviews. A week goes by then another and finally it's been a month. In one day you get a short email, it tells you someone else has been chosen for the interview. What happened? Our guest expert this week is Andrea Gerson. She says the problem may be your resume, it may be doing a poor job of organizing, describing and presenting your accomplishments. Later in the show, Andrea and I talk about how to write a resume that gets you interviews, not rejection letters. It's common now to use infographics to tell stories. Some career coaches encourage people to use a graphic format for resumes. Others warn that it's a mistake period. Ben Forstag has found a blog post with ten reasons why you should have a graphic resume, four reasons why you shouldn't, and five risks with the format. He'll tell us more in a moment. How do you support members of your family when they look for a job? That's the question of the week. It comes from listener Heath P. Jenna Forstrom tells us her answer in a few minutes.
But first, as always, let's check in with the Mac's List team. We're talking about resume writing this week. Jenna and Ben. What kind of help have you two gotten with resume writing in your careers?
Ben Forstag
So I think the biggest piece of advice I ever got and I think this is where most people their resumes fall off the rails is talking about accomplishments rather than duties which is so important because talking about what your past job duties were makes not a lick of difference, right? Because that just says what you were supposed to be doing as opposed to what you actually did. The other one that I've always struggled with because I'm a very verbose person, especially in writing is being short and clear and cutting out the fluff that isn't needed. And one of the things I always think about when I work on my resume or when I write in general is that saying "kill your darlings," right? There's some things on your resume that you think are just so precious and wonderful and you can't imagine getting rid of them. You really need to get rid of them sometimes because they don't add any value to the employer who is really the prime target of your resume.
Mac Prichard
Yeah, that's good advice, Ben. And as you talk about editing, I'm reminded of a quote from Stephen King who says "the road to hell is paved with adverbs." So, look for those -ly words and 9 times out of 10, your sentence will be stronger without them whether it's a resume or any kind of communication,
Ben Forstag
That's very adroitly said.
Mac Prichard
Particularly because Halloween is next week as we record this. So, Jenna, do you have any Halloween related or themed advice? It doesn't have to be seasonal.
Jenna Forstrom
I have no Halloween advice. I mean, I have lots of Halloween advice. None of it's career related. Oh wait, no I can make I can bring this full circle. I can save the statement. On our upcoming course, we have a free download called "How to wow and woo your employers online." And if you are doing anything questionable on Halloween make sure you lock down your social media profiles so that future employers or maybe even current employers don't see it.
Ben Forstag
Well done.
Mac Prichard
And for the benefit of our listeners, I think one of the part of the course we talked about social media and I have to fess up that there's a picture of me and my Halloween costume is Gumby from three years ago, I think
Jenna Forstrom
But that's a very good - that shows your personality. It's not questionable in taste. No one's gonna wonder what kind of Gumby you're going to be for Halloween. So yeah, there we go.
Mac Prichard
Okay, well, let's bring it back to resumes. And I apologize because I took us down the Halloween path. What about resume writing tips for you Jenna, what kind of coaching did you get in your career?
Jenna Forstrom
I when I was in college, I went to the career services and we did like mock resume reviews. So they had like my junior year they had like 15 employers come in you went and you handed out 15 copies of your resume and like the next day you got them back and they all had feedback. And my radical rationalization as a 20-21 year old was everyone wants something else and you cannot please everyone. So pick and choose and check your gut and use the best feedback from the most people because you're going to... one person's going to want it one way, one person's going to want another way. And you just can't play that game, because it's just really frustrating when you're 20, so it's going to be just as frustrating when you're 30 or 35 or 40 or so on and so forth. So, take the feedback with a grain of salt. Focus on your accomplishments. And then the big one for me was always include numbers so just say, like, helped grow such and such organization or promotional through social media because that's what my role is predominantly, but it's like how much did you grow? What percentage? What number? And just, facts will always win over feelings.
Mac Prichard
Well said. A habit I picked up early in my career that has continued to serve me well is to show my resume to at least three other people and have them proofread it and look for those typos. We're going to talk more with Andrea about other things she can do to make your resume stand out and get an interview. But we all know, and I think listeners do too, that a typo is just - that's a fatal error and the best way to catch it is to ask for help from your friends and family. And read your resume out loud. The ear is often your best editor. Okay, well, let's move on. And let's turn to Ben, who is out there every week searching the nooks and crannies of the internet. He's looking for websites, books and tools you can use in your job search and your career. So, Ben, what have you uncovered for our listeners this week?
Ben Forstag
This week, I've found a blog post called "10 Pros, 4 Cons, and 5 Risks of Graphic Resumes." So if you spend any time on LinkedIn, you've probably seen someone post an article about look at these amazing graphical resumes. These are resumes that have lots of pictures in them or they're infographics or sometimes they're online and there's lots of bells and whistles and if you push the cursor to the right, you know fireworks go off. They're all very cool and like very snazzy, and I think they're really nice as well. But they always wrangle me a little bit because I think for most people, and I'm putting my myself out here right now, I think for most people, you don't want a resume like that. And so this blog post really spells out what kind of people and what kind of professions and what kind of situations want, need or should use a graphic resume versus a more traditional resume. And they lay out 10 pros 4 cons and 5 risks. But I'm going to tell you right now, the shorthand is this - if you're applying for a job in which you are going through an automatic scoring system, you know, these are the keyword based systems. Don't, don't don't don't don't use a graphic resume, because your highly designed resume will not be read properly by the scanning software. And that means you're just going to be weeded out right from the start. The other one they say is you know if you do work in a creative field where you know that the person looking at this resume is actually a human being first and foremost and not some computer program, then maybe you want to have this opportunity there. You want to take advantage of it show off your design skills. But in general, and I'd say for 9 out of 10 people, don't go for the cutesy, advanced resumes. A more straightforward approach is the best way to go. But again, I encourage you to check out this blog post there's a little bit more nuance to what I just presented there. Again, it's called 10 pros 4 cons and 5 risks of graphic resumes. This comes from the epiccv.com blog and we'll have the URL in the show notes. But let me ask you Mac, what do you think? Do you like the the highly polished and designed resumes or just the more standard, clear traditional format?
Mac Prichard
I think it comes back to knowing your audience, so if you're going to have a one on one meeting with someone, I think there's a - and you will hand the resume to that person, particularly if you're in a creative or design field. A graphic resume or highly designed document can serve you well. If you're applying somewhere where as you say the employers using an automated tracking system, then adjust your document accordingly and meet the needs of the people who you want to employ you. And it's okay to have a resume in a couple of different formats. But I think it really needs to be based on the needs of the people you want to hire you. And that'll serve you well.
Ben Forstag
Yeah, and I think one other thing to keep in mind here is oftentimes when you see these resumes, they're not actually conveying information in a very, it's visually very pleasing, but it's not the clearest way to convey that information. And I think a rule of hand here is if you're trying to convey your accomplishments, and that's the most important thing, then you use a traditional format. If you're trying to convey your design ability, maybe then you go with a more creative format. But again, know your audience and know what you're actually trying to put on display with your resume.
Mac Prichard
Yeah, okay. Good distinction Ben. If you have a suggestion for Ben, please write him and we may share your idea on the show. Ben's address is easy to remember, it's ben@macslist.org. Now let's turn to you our listeners. Jennifer Forstrom, our Community Manager joins us as always to answer one of your questions. So Jenna, what's in the Mac's List mailbag this week?
Mac Prichard
I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List. I'm joined by my co host, Ben Forstag, our Managing Director and Jenna Forstrom, our Community Manager. This week we're talking about why your resume might not be getting you interviews. Our show was brought to you by Hack the Hidden Job Market, the new online course now available for Mac's List. As many as 8 out of 10 job openings never get advertised - is your dream job one of them? Learn how to uncover hidden jobs and get noticed by the hiring managers who fail them, visit Macslist.org/course.
You've just sent your resume off for a job you really want. And you don't worry when you don't get a reply that first day or the next. After all, it takes time to review resumes and pick the people who get interviews. A week goes by then another and finally it's been a month. In one day you get a short email, it tells you someone else has been chosen for the interview. What happened? Our guest expert this week is Andrea Gerson. She says the problem may be your resume, it may be doing a poor job of organizing, describing and presenting your accomplishments. Later in the show, Andrea and I talk about how to write a resume that gets you interviews, not rejection letters. It's common now to use infographics to tell stories. Some career coaches encourage people to use a graphic format for resumes. Others warn that it's a mistake period. Ben Forstag has found a blog post with ten reasons why you should have a graphic resume, four reasons why you shouldn't, and five risks with the format. He'll tell us more in a moment. How do you support members of your family when they look for a job? That's the question of the week. It comes from listener Heath P. Jenna Forstrom tells us her answer in a few minutes.
But first, as always, let's check in with the Mac's List team. We're talking about resume writing this week. Jenna and Ben. What kind of help have you two gotten with resume writing in your careers?
Ben Forstag
So I think the biggest piece of advice I ever got and I think this is where most people their resumes fall off the rails is talking about accomplishments rather than duties which is so important because talking about what your past job duties were makes not a lick of difference, right? Because that just says what you were supposed to be doing as opposed to what you actually did. The other one that I've always struggled with because I'm a very verbose person, especially in writing is being short and clear and cutting out the fluff that isn't needed. And one of the things I always think about when I work on my resume or when I write in general is that saying "kill your darlings," right? There's some things on your resume that you think are just so precious and wonderful and you can't imagine getting rid of them. You really need to get rid of them sometimes because they don't add any value to the employer who is really the prime target of your resume.
Mac Prichard
Yeah, that's good advice, Ben. And as you talk about editing, I'm reminded of a quote from Stephen King who says "the road to hell is paved with adverbs." So, look for those -ly words and 9 times out of 10, your sentence will be stronger without them whether it's a resume or any kind of communication,
Ben Forstag
That's very adroitly said.
Mac Prichard
Particularly because Halloween is next week as we record this. So, Jenna, do you have any Halloween related or themed advice? It doesn't have to be seasonal.
Jenna Forstrom
I have no Halloween advice. I mean, I have lots of Halloween advice. None of it's career related. Oh wait, no I can make I can bring this full circle. I can save the statement. On our upcoming course, we have a free download called "How to wow and woo your employers online." And if you are doing anything questionable on Halloween make sure you lock down your social media profiles so that future employers or maybe even current employers don't see it.
Ben Forstag
Well done.
Mac Prichard
And for the benefit of our listeners, I think one of the part of the course we talked about social media and I have to fess up that there's a picture of me and my Halloween costume is Gumby from three years ago, I think
Jenna Forstrom
But that's a very good - that shows your personality. It's not questionable in taste. No one's gonna wonder what kind of Gumby you're going to be for Halloween. So yeah, there we go.
Mac Prichard
Okay, well, let's bring it back to resumes. And I apologize because I took us down the Halloween path. What about resume writing tips for you Jenna, what kind of coaching did you get in your career?
Jenna Forstrom
I when I was in college, I went to the career services and we did like mock resume reviews. So they had like my junior year they had like 15 employers come in you went and you handed out 15 copies of your resume and like the next day you got them back and they all had feedback. And my radical rationalization as a 20-21 year old was everyone wants something else and you cannot please everyone. So pick and choose and check your gut and use the best feedback from the most people because you're going to... one person's going to want it one way, one person's going to want another way. And you just can't play that game, because it's just really frustrating when you're 20, so it's going to be just as frustrating when you're 30 or 35 or 40 or so on and so forth. So, take the feedback with a grain of salt. Focus on your accomplishments. And then the big one for me was always include numbers so just say, like, helped grow such and such organization or promotional through social media because that's what my role is predominantly, but it's like how much did you grow? What percentage? What number? And just, facts will always win over feelings.
Mac Prichard
Well said. A habit I picked up early in my career that has continued to serve me well is to show my resume to at least three other people and have them proofread it and look for those typos. We're going to talk more with Andrea about other things she can do to make your resume stand out and get an interview. But we all know, and I think listeners do too, that a typo is just - that's a fatal error and the best way to catch it is to ask for help from your friends and family. And read your resume out loud. The ear is often your best editor. Okay, well, let's move on. And let's turn to Ben, who is out there every week searching the nooks and crannies of the internet. He's looking for websites, books and tools you can use in your job search and your career. So, Ben, what have you uncovered for our listeners this week?
Ben Forstag
This week, I've found a blog post called "10 Pros, 4 Cons, and 5 Risks of Graphic Resumes." So if you spend any time on LinkedIn, you've probably seen someone post an article about look at these amazing graphical resumes. These are resumes that have lots of pictures in them or they're infographics or sometimes they're online and there's lots of bells and whistles and if you push the cursor to the right, you know fireworks go off. They're all very cool and like very snazzy, and I think they're really nice as well. But they always wrangle me a little bit because I think for most people, and I'm putting my myself out here right now, I think for most people, you don't want a resume like that. And so this blog post really spells out what kind of people and what kind of professions and what kind of situations want, need or should use a graphic resume versus a more traditional resume. And they lay out 10 pros 4 cons and 5 risks. But I'm going to tell you right now, the shorthand is this - if you're applying for a job in which you are going through an automatic scoring system, you know, these are the keyword based systems. Don't, don't don't don't don't use a graphic resume, because your highly designed resume will not be read properly by the scanning software. And that means you're just going to be weeded out right from the start. The other one they say is you know if you do work in a creative field where you know that the person looking at this resume is actually a human being first and foremost and not some computer program, then maybe you want to have this opportunity there. You want to take advantage of it show off your design skills. But in general, and I'd say for 9 out of 10 people, don't go for the cutesy, advanced resumes. A more straightforward approach is the best way to go. But again, I encourage you to check out this blog post there's a little bit more nuance to what I just presented there. Again, it's called 10 pros 4 cons and 5 risks of graphic resumes. This comes from the epiccv.com blog and we'll have the URL in the show notes. But let me ask you Mac, what do you think? Do you like the the highly polished and designed resumes or just the more standard, clear traditional format?
Mac Prichard
I think it comes back to knowing your audience, so if you're going to have a one on one meeting with someone, I think there's a - and you will hand the resume to that person, particularly if you're in a creative or design field. A graphic resume or highly designed document can serve you well. If you're applying somewhere where as you say the employers using an automated tracking system, then adjust your document accordingly and meet the needs of the people who you want to employ you. And it's okay to have a resume in a couple of different formats. But I think it really needs to be based on the needs of the people you want to hire you. And that'll serve you well.
Ben Forstag
Yeah, and I think one other thing to keep in mind here is oftentimes when you see these resumes, they're not actually conveying information in a very, it's visually very pleasing, but it's not the clearest way to convey that information. And I think a rule of hand here is if you're trying to convey your accomplishments, and that's the most important thing, then you use a traditional format. If you're trying to convey your design ability, maybe then you go with a more creative format. But again, know your audience and know what you're actually trying to put on display with your resume.
Mac Prichard
Yeah, okay. Good distinction Ben. If you have a suggestion for Ben, please write him and we may share your idea on the show. Ben's address is easy to remember, it's ben@macslist.org. Now let's turn to you our listeners. Jennifer Forstrom, our Community Manager joins us as always to answer one of your questions. So Jenna, what's in the Mac's List mailbag this week?
Heath asks, |
"How can I help my mom with her job search?" |
Jenna Forstrom
This week's question comes from Heath P, who asks
Heath P.
Hey, Mac's List Team, I have a question on how I can help my mom related to her job search. She recently, she went back to college - super proud of her for that. She had been a teacher for a very long time. She was a PE teacher, a cross country coach in high school. She went to school for a little while to do drafting, AutoCAD and things like that for architecture designs. And she finally went back last year and got her degree which is huge.
And, she finished up her degree this year in May, and she hasn't been able to go out and find a new job because she's terrified of interviewing for a job she just it's really scared for her to put herself out there. She's been rejected for a lot of jobs. So what kind of advice would you give her? You know her degree is in AutoCAD. She's a very good worker. She's a hard worker, she's a great woman, always on time. You know, how can she get out there and you know, put herself into this job hunting world. When she doesn't really know where to start. She doesn't have a huge pot of connections. She doesn't really go out and network or anything like that. So where should she start? We'd really appreciate some advice I can hand over to her. Thank you guys for the work you do. Thank you. Bye.
Jenna Forstrom
Thanks for calling in. I think it's great that you're helping encourage your mom in her job hunt and here are a few tips for her. First of all, she needs to start networking and this can be as easy as just talking to her friends and family about job hunting. Obviously you know about it, but I'm not sure if her other friends are aware of her transition from being a teacher to being in CAD and design. So just talking about that. Mac's List has a great course it just launched we've been talking about it called Hack the Hidden Job Market. So if you don't want to parent your parent, maybe you can send them a link to the URL to the course and just strongly suggest she check it out. But we talk about all the different ways networking helps hack the hidden job market with this course. Additionally, since your mom just finished school, she's got a great access in her Alumni Association and the Career Resource Center. So chances are, they know other great designers in the area that you guys live in work in and they could kind of assign some homework which is less intimidating to coach her through job interviewing, and networking. And then finally you're already doing it like just being a great soundboard for your mom's like quibs with job hunting and griping but then also just encouraging her and you use a lot of great language like she's really smart. She's really educated. She's really dedicated. She's my mom, that kind of stuff, just reminding her at what a great woman she is. And I think that encourages people naturally, and then Mac and Ben, do you guys have any more tips?
Ben Forstag
Well, first, I think it's awesome that your mom went back to school and got a degree and changed her career. I think that's probably the toughest part of the whole process here is knowing what you want to do and taking action to do it. And we talk to a lot of job seekers who aren't even at that point. And so they don't even know where to begin right or where they should start looking. I think it's awesome that your mom has taken that initiative and she's put herself in a position where she can find meaningful work that she's going to like. I think you're absolutely right, Jenna, networking is the key. And I think one of the problems a lot of people have is that they will think networking means something that it doesn't right and most people think networking means like the after work happy hour at the airport Hilton where you're glad handing and smiling and doing idle chitchat with people. That's certainly part of networking. It can look like that. But I also think networking can be scheduling one-on-one sit downs with people in the field -- people who have the job you'd like to have -- and talking to them about how they got to where they are in their career. And sharing who you are and your interests and being frank and saying I'm looking to get a job in this field. What advice would you have for me, and I think those more intimate, small scale, one on one interactions can be really valuable, and especially for people who have more introverted tendencies, much more comfortable forms of networking.
Mac Prichard
I think that's right. One great way to start in networking. As I mentioned, there are other graduates from this program who are probably came into the field of mid career like our caller's mother and I would encourage her to reach out to those people and ask them about their experiences after graduation, how they conducted their job search and what worked and what didn't work. And, to your point, Jenna, great way to find them is to look at the Alumni Association directory and answer professors and people at the school. Have you seen people like me who are coming in not only into a new field but coming to that or later in life? Can you introduce them? I'd like to learn from their experience and, and, and I think she'll find that there are folks like that, and I think she'll find those conversations especially rewarding.
Jenna Forstrom
Thanks, guys. And thanks, Heath, for calling in.
Mac Prichard
Thank you, Heath, and thank you Jenna. If you have a question for Jenna, please email her her address is easy to remember too it's jenna@macslist.org or call our listener line. That number is area code 716-562-8225. If we use your question on the air, we'll send you a free copy of our upcoming book "Land Your Dream Job Anywhere" that is being published in February. Now these segments with Ben and Jenna are sponsored by Hack the Hidden Job Market, the online course for Mac's List. As many as 80% of all jobs never get posted. Instead, employees fill these openings by word of mouth. Our new course shows you how this hidden job market works. We teach you how to find punk gigs that never appear in a job board. How to stand out online in the crowd of applicants and how to connect with insiders who can help your career. In each of the course's 12 modules, you get the tools and tips you need to get the work you want. Meaningful work, work that makes a difference, work that you can love. Hack the Hidden Job Market is now live. Register now at www.macslist.org/course.
"Don't be afraid to quantify, to put numbers in, and to talk about an improvement." |
Mac Prichard
Now let's turn to this week's guest expert, Andrea Gerson.
Andrea Gerson helps professionals find clarity, confidence and a renewed sense of energy in their work. She's the founder of Resume Scripter and Andrea has created and edited resumes and cover letters for more than 3,000 people. Her client organizations have included Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Bloomberg, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase, the United Nations and the Red Cross. She joins us today in the Mac's List studio in downtown Portland, Oregon. Andrea,, thanks for coming downtown. Oh, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you here. Now we're talking about resumes and interviews and so many people send that resume off with great hope and then they don't hear anything and nobody likes to have this experience. But we've all gotten that rejection letter. What are things that people should be doing with a resume say, can they increase the chances that they're going to get an interview?
Andrea Gerson
That's a great question. I think it can be so challenging for most people to quantify what they've accomplished and to sort of brag about what they've done and to take ownership over what their role has been. So I definitely see, you know, there are definitely some patterns that I see when I open an old resume from a client. One of the first things that I tend to notice is that people will jump right into their tasks, you know, so the first section of the resume will be what their most recent job was. And I find that that's really you know, they're losing an opportunity to invite the reader in to read their resume. You know, because really I like to think of it that you have prime real estate on the resume. So there's the top third of the document, that is really your chance to grab their attention and make them want to read more and there are a few ways to do that. One way is through a career profile section, which is where you know, you'd want to have like three to five bullets that are giving an overview of your highest level accomplishments in a way that pertains to the kind of role that you're going for. So in that sense, that's where you want the big numbers to come in. And that's usually the section that I do last.
Mac Prichard
So when you work with a client so there's a section that comes first?
Andrea Gerson
Right, first on the resume but then once I've kind of gone through and I get a sense of like what what a person's narrative is, and then bearing in mind like where they want to be, then I kind of develop the profile section. So that's one way.
Mac Prichard
So know your your goals, where you want to go. And then know your story as well, right, and how your story can support the achievement of those goals. But also, don't talk about tasks, talk about accomplishments, right?
Andrea Gerson
Right. Don't be afraid to quantify, to put numbers in and to talk about an improvement. You know, if you had a hand in something, you accomplished something great or you contributed to something. And I have a few examples of how people might be able to do that. So let's talk about that. So I know one thing that comes up a lot, especially for some reason with the women that I work with is that they they don't like to brag, they don't like to, you know, they don't want to oversell themselves. So I think that often people err too far on the side of saying that they assisted or they supported, instead of using stronger language and more action verbs. So some things to include are like, for instance, the annual revenue of the company that you worked for, you know, that's one way to just set the stage for the reader to give them a sense of like the kind of environment that you were working in or the sector it was in. Or maybe the company had growth while you were there. That could be something that you want to highlight.
Mac Prichard
To provide context.
Andrea Gerson
Exactly. Yeah. And also, another way that they could potentially quantify is the number of clients that the company serves, or how large the accounts are so that's another way that they can to give numbers if they feel like they didn't have direct results from the work that they did.
Now let's turn to this week's guest expert, Andrea Gerson.
Andrea Gerson helps professionals find clarity, confidence and a renewed sense of energy in their work. She's the founder of Resume Scripter and Andrea has created and edited resumes and cover letters for more than 3,000 people. Her client organizations have included Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Bloomberg, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase, the United Nations and the Red Cross. She joins us today in the Mac's List studio in downtown Portland, Oregon. Andrea,, thanks for coming downtown. Oh, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you here. Now we're talking about resumes and interviews and so many people send that resume off with great hope and then they don't hear anything and nobody likes to have this experience. But we've all gotten that rejection letter. What are things that people should be doing with a resume say, can they increase the chances that they're going to get an interview?
Andrea Gerson
That's a great question. I think it can be so challenging for most people to quantify what they've accomplished and to sort of brag about what they've done and to take ownership over what their role has been. So I definitely see, you know, there are definitely some patterns that I see when I open an old resume from a client. One of the first things that I tend to notice is that people will jump right into their tasks, you know, so the first section of the resume will be what their most recent job was. And I find that that's really you know, they're losing an opportunity to invite the reader in to read their resume. You know, because really I like to think of it that you have prime real estate on the resume. So there's the top third of the document, that is really your chance to grab their attention and make them want to read more and there are a few ways to do that. One way is through a career profile section, which is where you know, you'd want to have like three to five bullets that are giving an overview of your highest level accomplishments in a way that pertains to the kind of role that you're going for. So in that sense, that's where you want the big numbers to come in. And that's usually the section that I do last.
Mac Prichard
So when you work with a client so there's a section that comes first?
Andrea Gerson
Right, first on the resume but then once I've kind of gone through and I get a sense of like what what a person's narrative is, and then bearing in mind like where they want to be, then I kind of develop the profile section. So that's one way.
Mac Prichard
So know your your goals, where you want to go. And then know your story as well, right, and how your story can support the achievement of those goals. But also, don't talk about tasks, talk about accomplishments, right?
Andrea Gerson
Right. Don't be afraid to quantify, to put numbers in and to talk about an improvement. You know, if you had a hand in something, you accomplished something great or you contributed to something. And I have a few examples of how people might be able to do that. So let's talk about that. So I know one thing that comes up a lot, especially for some reason with the women that I work with is that they they don't like to brag, they don't like to, you know, they don't want to oversell themselves. So I think that often people err too far on the side of saying that they assisted or they supported, instead of using stronger language and more action verbs. So some things to include are like, for instance, the annual revenue of the company that you worked for, you know, that's one way to just set the stage for the reader to give them a sense of like the kind of environment that you were working in or the sector it was in. Or maybe the company had growth while you were there. That could be something that you want to highlight.
Mac Prichard
To provide context.
Andrea Gerson
Exactly. Yeah. And also, another way that they could potentially quantify is the number of clients that the company serves, or how large the accounts are so that's another way that they can to give numbers if they feel like they didn't have direct results from the work that they did.
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Mac Prichard
How does that help somebody stand out? Because their resume goes -- it's there. There's a meeting, there are probably 25 or 50 resumes and two or three people are in a small room just like we're sitting in right now. And they're going to choose five so how will this help?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, that's a good question. So I see a lot of resumes. I've probably seen like 1,000s of resumes, as I'm sure you probably have too and, you know, there's like a three to five second period, if even that, that you're spending when you're looking at a resume and you're saying, am I even going to devote the full 10 seconds? So you're looking for any kind of mistakes, errors. You want to see, did the person invest time and energy into this, are there mistakes that are jumping out at me? But ultimately, you want the information to be presented in a way where you can actually absorb it. Because I think people people will often try to inundate the reader with a lot of empty information. So let's look at an example of that. I think that will be helpful. So I have a few actual bullets that I've pulled from client resumes to give an example of how that how that could sound.
Mac Prichard
That's terrific. Would you share this with us?
Andrea Gerson
Sure! Okay, great. So this was a client that I worked with, her job title was Event and Public Relations Manager. Okay, so she was working at this multinational company for a 10 year period. Okay, so on a resume, it looked like she had just had this one role for 10 years and the first bullet of that section in her resume was "Managed over 50 special events per year, ranging from 50 people to 600 for company and it's 80 international subsidiaries and affiliate companies, including contract negotiation with vendors, site venue and catering design and selection, almost all multimedia requirements and on-site coordination. So that's a mouthful of information that I feel like it's not really articulating what her role was in any of that.
Mac Prichard
Are you worried that her leadership is not being is buried there?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, what was her contribution? What did she do? Yep. So when I see bullets like that, my first instinct is to try to pull them apart. You know, that kind of a bullet probably wants to be three bullets. Because we're wanting to know, you know, you have to sort of break it into bite sized pieces otherwise they get overwhelmed. So I split this one into into two bullets. Example, so I made her first bullet, just say, oversaw logistics of high profile events on behalf of global corporation, generating more than $85 million in yearly revenue, managing promotional programs for international subsidiaries across high growth sectors, including XYZ.
How does that help somebody stand out? Because their resume goes -- it's there. There's a meeting, there are probably 25 or 50 resumes and two or three people are in a small room just like we're sitting in right now. And they're going to choose five so how will this help?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, that's a good question. So I see a lot of resumes. I've probably seen like 1,000s of resumes, as I'm sure you probably have too and, you know, there's like a three to five second period, if even that, that you're spending when you're looking at a resume and you're saying, am I even going to devote the full 10 seconds? So you're looking for any kind of mistakes, errors. You want to see, did the person invest time and energy into this, are there mistakes that are jumping out at me? But ultimately, you want the information to be presented in a way where you can actually absorb it. Because I think people people will often try to inundate the reader with a lot of empty information. So let's look at an example of that. I think that will be helpful. So I have a few actual bullets that I've pulled from client resumes to give an example of how that how that could sound.
Mac Prichard
That's terrific. Would you share this with us?
Andrea Gerson
Sure! Okay, great. So this was a client that I worked with, her job title was Event and Public Relations Manager. Okay, so she was working at this multinational company for a 10 year period. Okay, so on a resume, it looked like she had just had this one role for 10 years and the first bullet of that section in her resume was "Managed over 50 special events per year, ranging from 50 people to 600 for company and it's 80 international subsidiaries and affiliate companies, including contract negotiation with vendors, site venue and catering design and selection, almost all multimedia requirements and on-site coordination. So that's a mouthful of information that I feel like it's not really articulating what her role was in any of that.
Mac Prichard
Are you worried that her leadership is not being is buried there?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, what was her contribution? What did she do? Yep. So when I see bullets like that, my first instinct is to try to pull them apart. You know, that kind of a bullet probably wants to be three bullets. Because we're wanting to know, you know, you have to sort of break it into bite sized pieces otherwise they get overwhelmed. So I split this one into into two bullets. Example, so I made her first bullet, just say, oversaw logistics of high profile events on behalf of global corporation, generating more than $85 million in yearly revenue, managing promotional programs for international subsidiaries across high growth sectors, including XYZ.
"People want numbers, they want something to orient them." |
Mac Prichard
Okay, so as you do the after there, which is striking to me, it's clear that it's a global company doing international work, right. When you first read that long bullet, it could have been a Red Cross chapter in Nebraska.
Andrea Gerson
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So we want to really set the stage so that the reader knows is this even going to be applicable to the role that I'm applying that I'm interviewing for. Yeah, exactly. And also, I find that when people list multiple tasks, it's really hard to stay engaged because people ultimately want numbers, they want something to orient them. So, you want to try to keep the reader with you.
Mac Prichard
I'm curious, Andrea, why do those numbers help engage the reader? Why do they make somebody stand out when they do?
Andrea Gerson
Well, I think just like on a basic level it just gives some variety on the page. It separates just the words. But then I think it also shows that the writer is probably proactive, you know that they're really involved in the work that they're doing, that they have that knowledge and I think it also implies being action oriented.
Mac Prichard
Did you have some more examples for us?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, we have a few more examples. So another thing that I tend to see a lot on the old versions of people's resumes is that their bullets are either really short or really long. So often bullets will be like three words, or they'll be like four lines. And I think in the in the instance of a long bullet that we've seen, it's hard for the reader to stay with you. It's just too much information. And for a shorter bullet, I find that it's a missed opportunity to quantify, to bulk it up, to give categories and more rich details of what your role was in the work that you were doing. So we have another example of one of those. And I also have I also have this client's resume on my website, too. I know that a lot of people process information visually. So there is an example section on my website that people are welcome to follow along with if they find that to be useful.
Mac Prichard
We will put that in the show notes.
Andrea Gerson
Okay, so let's see. Another example here is okay, so "organized and consolidated all internal logistics for promotional tours, including marketing materials, giveaways, transportation and catering." So, there's so many tasks in there. And not much setting the stage and not much of showing an accomplishment
Mac Prichard
And I don't get a sense of what the company is either, right.
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I found that that bullet could actually be like four bullets, because there's so much there. There's so many, you know, so many little mentions of like marketing and giveaways and transportation that each of those could potentially be fleshed out, depending on what's the most impressive. You know what, what ends up being the most impressive and what kind of role that person wants to be moving into. So there are ways to kind of gear that so. So this ended up being a bunch of bullets. I'll just choose a couple here. "Managed two month long nationwide promotional tour, supervising teams of up to 30 staff." So there we were bringing out some numbers about the length of the program and how many people she oversaw. "Launched customer appreciation events for up to 1,000 attendees in San Diego, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles." So that's another example of just fleshing out some of those details.
Mac Prichard
National companies, somebody who's working with people in different markets all across the US.
Andrea Gerson
Exactly, exactly. So yeah, so those are a couple of examples.
Mac Prichard
As you share those I mean, I imagine our listeners are having this experience too, you're painting a picture in people's minds when you when you provide those after examples by using places, numbers and being specific about accomplishments.
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, exactly. Yep. I have a couple more examples.
Mac Prichard
Okay, well that's good. And these are very helpful and I'm curious what prevents people from doing this? Why doesn't this come naturally?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, that's such a good question. And I asked myself that a lot. Actually. I think that this is not a skill that we're taught. It's not a way of thinking about ourselves that comes naturally. I think, if anything, most of us are, you know, kind of socialized to be a little humbler, which is good. I think that it's good to be humble. It's good that people aren't going around bragging about themselves every day. But I think for that reason, it's not something that people feel comfortable doing. I think that for most people, it feels a little bit icky to sell themselves and to brag about the role that they had and the success of a group.
Mac Prichard
And how do you see people overcome this and learn this skill? Now obviously, you're a resume writer and people can work with resume writers, but are there books or websites or other tools that people can use who might not be ready to work with a resume? Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea Gerson
I think for people who aren't familiar with ways that they can quantify some of the work that they've done, I would definitely suggest Googling the STAR framework. I think for people who don't know about that, that's a way to kind of break down what types of information you might want to be pulling out of your existing resume.
Mac Prichard
Okay, and star sounds like an acronym.
Andrea Gerson
Yep, STAR stands for Situation, Task, Action and Results. So it's a way to bring out some of this information that we've been talking about. The situation is like setting the stage for the reader, what type of company were you working for, what industry? And then the task and action are sort of like what was your role, and what what did you do? And then the R is the result, and that's where we we can include the numbers
Mac Prichard
Terrific, well we'll include link to that in the show notes. And I know, from looking at your website, and your blog, and we'll send people there as well, that there's some tactical things that come up that everybody can pay attention to, and one of them is is formatting. You see a lot of formatting problems. Tell us about those.
Andrea Gerson
I think that consistency is so important because that's part of the initial evaluation when someone is looking at the resume, you know, they're deciding if they're going to give it any more time. And if you want them to be reading it, I think it's really important that it's consistent that you're working with one type of font, that you have variation in terms of like font size, bold, all caps in a way that's consistent, because otherwise it can be really confusing for the reader and you're going to lose them.
Okay, so as you do the after there, which is striking to me, it's clear that it's a global company doing international work, right. When you first read that long bullet, it could have been a Red Cross chapter in Nebraska.
Andrea Gerson
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So we want to really set the stage so that the reader knows is this even going to be applicable to the role that I'm applying that I'm interviewing for. Yeah, exactly. And also, I find that when people list multiple tasks, it's really hard to stay engaged because people ultimately want numbers, they want something to orient them. So, you want to try to keep the reader with you.
Mac Prichard
I'm curious, Andrea, why do those numbers help engage the reader? Why do they make somebody stand out when they do?
Andrea Gerson
Well, I think just like on a basic level it just gives some variety on the page. It separates just the words. But then I think it also shows that the writer is probably proactive, you know that they're really involved in the work that they're doing, that they have that knowledge and I think it also implies being action oriented.
Mac Prichard
Did you have some more examples for us?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, we have a few more examples. So another thing that I tend to see a lot on the old versions of people's resumes is that their bullets are either really short or really long. So often bullets will be like three words, or they'll be like four lines. And I think in the in the instance of a long bullet that we've seen, it's hard for the reader to stay with you. It's just too much information. And for a shorter bullet, I find that it's a missed opportunity to quantify, to bulk it up, to give categories and more rich details of what your role was in the work that you were doing. So we have another example of one of those. And I also have I also have this client's resume on my website, too. I know that a lot of people process information visually. So there is an example section on my website that people are welcome to follow along with if they find that to be useful.
Mac Prichard
We will put that in the show notes.
Andrea Gerson
Okay, so let's see. Another example here is okay, so "organized and consolidated all internal logistics for promotional tours, including marketing materials, giveaways, transportation and catering." So, there's so many tasks in there. And not much setting the stage and not much of showing an accomplishment
Mac Prichard
And I don't get a sense of what the company is either, right.
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I found that that bullet could actually be like four bullets, because there's so much there. There's so many, you know, so many little mentions of like marketing and giveaways and transportation that each of those could potentially be fleshed out, depending on what's the most impressive. You know what, what ends up being the most impressive and what kind of role that person wants to be moving into. So there are ways to kind of gear that so. So this ended up being a bunch of bullets. I'll just choose a couple here. "Managed two month long nationwide promotional tour, supervising teams of up to 30 staff." So there we were bringing out some numbers about the length of the program and how many people she oversaw. "Launched customer appreciation events for up to 1,000 attendees in San Diego, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles." So that's another example of just fleshing out some of those details.
Mac Prichard
National companies, somebody who's working with people in different markets all across the US.
Andrea Gerson
Exactly, exactly. So yeah, so those are a couple of examples.
Mac Prichard
As you share those I mean, I imagine our listeners are having this experience too, you're painting a picture in people's minds when you when you provide those after examples by using places, numbers and being specific about accomplishments.
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, exactly. Yep. I have a couple more examples.
Mac Prichard
Okay, well that's good. And these are very helpful and I'm curious what prevents people from doing this? Why doesn't this come naturally?
Andrea Gerson
Yeah, that's such a good question. And I asked myself that a lot. Actually. I think that this is not a skill that we're taught. It's not a way of thinking about ourselves that comes naturally. I think, if anything, most of us are, you know, kind of socialized to be a little humbler, which is good. I think that it's good to be humble. It's good that people aren't going around bragging about themselves every day. But I think for that reason, it's not something that people feel comfortable doing. I think that for most people, it feels a little bit icky to sell themselves and to brag about the role that they had and the success of a group.
Mac Prichard
And how do you see people overcome this and learn this skill? Now obviously, you're a resume writer and people can work with resume writers, but are there books or websites or other tools that people can use who might not be ready to work with a resume? Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea Gerson
I think for people who aren't familiar with ways that they can quantify some of the work that they've done, I would definitely suggest Googling the STAR framework. I think for people who don't know about that, that's a way to kind of break down what types of information you might want to be pulling out of your existing resume.
Mac Prichard
Okay, and star sounds like an acronym.
Andrea Gerson
Yep, STAR stands for Situation, Task, Action and Results. So it's a way to bring out some of this information that we've been talking about. The situation is like setting the stage for the reader, what type of company were you working for, what industry? And then the task and action are sort of like what was your role, and what what did you do? And then the R is the result, and that's where we we can include the numbers
Mac Prichard
Terrific, well we'll include link to that in the show notes. And I know, from looking at your website, and your blog, and we'll send people there as well, that there's some tactical things that come up that everybody can pay attention to, and one of them is is formatting. You see a lot of formatting problems. Tell us about those.
Andrea Gerson
I think that consistency is so important because that's part of the initial evaluation when someone is looking at the resume, you know, they're deciding if they're going to give it any more time. And if you want them to be reading it, I think it's really important that it's consistent that you're working with one type of font, that you have variation in terms of like font size, bold, all caps in a way that's consistent, because otherwise it can be really confusing for the reader and you're going to lose them.
"Real estate is so limited...You want to be presenting the most pertinent information, as much as you can." |
Mac Prichard
I know there are things you recommend that people not included a resume, why don't we just go through rapid fire list of those. And tell us why it's not such a good idea and might not get you an interview? Photographs.
Andrea Gerson
I think that there are some countries in some industries where that is commonplace, like in acting and foodservice. And in some places in Europe, it's common to have a photograph but I think in the US, we have such strict human resources policies that can introduce a lot of issues and complications into the hiring process.
Mac Prichard
What about personal interests? I know you're not a fan of including hobbies.
Andrea Gerson
I'm not. Because I think that the space on the real estate is so limited if you're including the kind of information that you should be, then you want to be using the space. You want to be presenting the most pertinent information, as much as you can. So things like hobbies and stuff, I feel like they fit better in the context of an interview. I think that there are instances, if you don't have that much interesting stuff on your resume, that you can make a case to include a hobby section, but usually I advise against it.
Mac Prichard
A lot of our listeners are baby boomers like I'm actually turning 58 next month. But a common question we get is, should I include every job? Is there a rule of thumb that you recommend when people are no matter what their age or building a resume?
Andrea Gerson
I usually say 10 to 15 years maximum. I do on occasion go back as far as 20 years. If, for instance, the person worked for a company that was really well-known, or if they're making a transition and they want to kind of move back into an older kind of work that they used to do. Then I might do that. And there are ways to do that with formatting where you could have a professional project section. You know, because really, you don't want to have just a professional experience section that just goes on and on and on. If you're going to go back further, you want to kind of split it up in a way where it makes sense to the reader, where the chronology won't all be important. So, they don't need to know every job you've had if you are going to go back that far.
Mac Prichard
Okay, when we started our conversation, Andrea, we talked about the importance of knowing where you want to go and describing your accomplishments and not being humble. And using data specific numbers and painting that picture of the company and your role in it. Tell us more about organization. You suggested a section up front. Tell us about the rest of the structure of that resume. What do you recommend that's going to help people get those interviews and move to the top of the pile?
Andrea Gerson
What I find so interesting about resumes is that I think people want to find the right answer, like what is they look at, in black and white terms. And for me what I find really fun about developing resumes is that it's actually really a case-by-case thing. You know, I think you can really use the options to your advantage depending on what you want to highlight and emphasize. So like for instance, someone who was an executive, they might have a bigger career profile section at the top and then not have like, a section of bulleted key words. They might not need that.
Mac Prichard
I can hear our listeners saying to themselves, well, how do I know? Is that driven by their goals?
Andrea Gerson
It's driven by the type of role that they want to move into and whether their resume is gearing them for that effectively. So whether they have a lot of like pertinent keywords already. But if they're moving into a field where they don't have that much experience, or maybe they're a recent graduate or something, then it can be useful to have a section of like core competencies in the resume right under the profile. Which it could be like, I usually do them as three columns of three bullets each, which is you know, to bring in language that might otherwise not come across on the applicant tracking systems. So I find that to be a useful tool if someone is making some kind of a transition - to pull in industry language.
Mac Prichard
Well, this has been very helpful. Tell us, Andrea, what's coming up next for you.
Andrea Gerson
It's been such a whirlwind this past year in terms of like, I've been taking on a lot more clients on the West Coast and so I've been trying to move away from like just resume writing. So I started to do a lot more virtual coaching, which I really enjoyed, and a lot more just like writing articles to try to share strategies with people because I think resume writing is something that people really struggle with.
Mac Prichard
Good. Well, your tips have been very valuable. Thank you for joining us today and people can learn more about you and your business by visiting www.resumescripter.com. Andrea, thank you for being on the show and for coming downtown.
Andrea Gerson
Thanks so much for having me.
I know there are things you recommend that people not included a resume, why don't we just go through rapid fire list of those. And tell us why it's not such a good idea and might not get you an interview? Photographs.
Andrea Gerson
I think that there are some countries in some industries where that is commonplace, like in acting and foodservice. And in some places in Europe, it's common to have a photograph but I think in the US, we have such strict human resources policies that can introduce a lot of issues and complications into the hiring process.
Mac Prichard
What about personal interests? I know you're not a fan of including hobbies.
Andrea Gerson
I'm not. Because I think that the space on the real estate is so limited if you're including the kind of information that you should be, then you want to be using the space. You want to be presenting the most pertinent information, as much as you can. So things like hobbies and stuff, I feel like they fit better in the context of an interview. I think that there are instances, if you don't have that much interesting stuff on your resume, that you can make a case to include a hobby section, but usually I advise against it.
Mac Prichard
A lot of our listeners are baby boomers like I'm actually turning 58 next month. But a common question we get is, should I include every job? Is there a rule of thumb that you recommend when people are no matter what their age or building a resume?
Andrea Gerson
I usually say 10 to 15 years maximum. I do on occasion go back as far as 20 years. If, for instance, the person worked for a company that was really well-known, or if they're making a transition and they want to kind of move back into an older kind of work that they used to do. Then I might do that. And there are ways to do that with formatting where you could have a professional project section. You know, because really, you don't want to have just a professional experience section that just goes on and on and on. If you're going to go back further, you want to kind of split it up in a way where it makes sense to the reader, where the chronology won't all be important. So, they don't need to know every job you've had if you are going to go back that far.
Mac Prichard
Okay, when we started our conversation, Andrea, we talked about the importance of knowing where you want to go and describing your accomplishments and not being humble. And using data specific numbers and painting that picture of the company and your role in it. Tell us more about organization. You suggested a section up front. Tell us about the rest of the structure of that resume. What do you recommend that's going to help people get those interviews and move to the top of the pile?
Andrea Gerson
What I find so interesting about resumes is that I think people want to find the right answer, like what is they look at, in black and white terms. And for me what I find really fun about developing resumes is that it's actually really a case-by-case thing. You know, I think you can really use the options to your advantage depending on what you want to highlight and emphasize. So like for instance, someone who was an executive, they might have a bigger career profile section at the top and then not have like, a section of bulleted key words. They might not need that.
Mac Prichard
I can hear our listeners saying to themselves, well, how do I know? Is that driven by their goals?
Andrea Gerson
It's driven by the type of role that they want to move into and whether their resume is gearing them for that effectively. So whether they have a lot of like pertinent keywords already. But if they're moving into a field where they don't have that much experience, or maybe they're a recent graduate or something, then it can be useful to have a section of like core competencies in the resume right under the profile. Which it could be like, I usually do them as three columns of three bullets each, which is you know, to bring in language that might otherwise not come across on the applicant tracking systems. So I find that to be a useful tool if someone is making some kind of a transition - to pull in industry language.
Mac Prichard
Well, this has been very helpful. Tell us, Andrea, what's coming up next for you.
Andrea Gerson
It's been such a whirlwind this past year in terms of like, I've been taking on a lot more clients on the West Coast and so I've been trying to move away from like just resume writing. So I started to do a lot more virtual coaching, which I really enjoyed, and a lot more just like writing articles to try to share strategies with people because I think resume writing is something that people really struggle with.
Mac Prichard
Good. Well, your tips have been very valuable. Thank you for joining us today and people can learn more about you and your business by visiting www.resumescripter.com. Andrea, thank you for being on the show and for coming downtown.
Andrea Gerson
Thanks so much for having me.
,
Mac Prichard
We're back in the Maximus studio with Jenna and Ben. Tell me, you two, what are some key points you heard Andrea make. Jenna?
Jenna Forstrom
I really liked her point, in her examples, like she was sitting in this office - I will testify to this - with like different resumes that she was pulling out pieces and it just showed how well-prepared she was for this interview, which is a podcast interview but you should be as prepared in a real interview for a job. She spoke really succinctly. And then obviously she's a resume writer so she's got really good examples but just that idea of like taking one line that might be like jam packed with a whole bunch of information and like slowing down and breaking it out. Because as a community manager, people send me resumes a lot and I'm just like, Alright, I know that I'm not in your industry, but I have no idea what this one sentence means. So either is it industry specific or how can you like, dumb it down for the HR person to be like, "Oh, I like you and I like what you're telling me"? Even though it's not exactly industry specific. If that makes sense.
Mac Prichard
It makes perfect sense. Ben?
Ben Forstag
I'm going to go back to what I said before, which is about trying to cut down on the flowery language and along the same lines of what Jenna said make your application or your resume approachable and understandable and that means cutting it down to making it simpler bullets, shorter bullets with a clear understanding of what you did that way rather than long drawn out sentences with lots of clauses and lots of adverbs and things like that. Again, something I need to work on and I think Andrea did a really good job of highlighting how three bullets can be stronger than one really long one sometimes. I loved her before and after examples, and as I listened to her speak, the picture that she was painting in the after examples were very different than what you got from the from the before, which are the benefits of the recommendation she was making. The key point for me was I liked her emphasis on just thinking about the strategy. When you sit down to write your resume. Where do you want to go? What accomplishments do you have that will help support that case, and how do you document it through data or numbers or brand names? And being as specific as you can and above all, it's not a time to be humble and that's hard. For many of us - we're taught to be modest. I know people from the Midwest like me originally, but just people in general was a good quality to have but as Andrea says, you don't want to be humble when it comes time to write your resume.
Mac Prichard
Good. Well, thank you both and thank you Andrea for joining us here in the studio. And thank you our listeners for joining us for today's episode of Find Your Dream Job. If you like what you hear, please sign up for our free weekly newsletter. In every issue, we give you the key points of that week's show. We also include links to all the resources mentioned and you get a transcript of the full episode. If you subscribe to the newsletter now, we'll send you our jobs secret checklist in one easy to use file. We show you all the steps you need to take to find a great job. Get your free newsletter and checklist today. Go to Macslist.org/podcast. Join us next Wednesday when our special guest will be Julie Braun. She'll explain how you can make the most of your personal brand in a job search. Until next time, thanks for letting us help you find your dream job.
Mac Prichard
We're back in the Maximus studio with Jenna and Ben. Tell me, you two, what are some key points you heard Andrea make. Jenna?
Jenna Forstrom
I really liked her point, in her examples, like she was sitting in this office - I will testify to this - with like different resumes that she was pulling out pieces and it just showed how well-prepared she was for this interview, which is a podcast interview but you should be as prepared in a real interview for a job. She spoke really succinctly. And then obviously she's a resume writer so she's got really good examples but just that idea of like taking one line that might be like jam packed with a whole bunch of information and like slowing down and breaking it out. Because as a community manager, people send me resumes a lot and I'm just like, Alright, I know that I'm not in your industry, but I have no idea what this one sentence means. So either is it industry specific or how can you like, dumb it down for the HR person to be like, "Oh, I like you and I like what you're telling me"? Even though it's not exactly industry specific. If that makes sense.
Mac Prichard
It makes perfect sense. Ben?
Ben Forstag
I'm going to go back to what I said before, which is about trying to cut down on the flowery language and along the same lines of what Jenna said make your application or your resume approachable and understandable and that means cutting it down to making it simpler bullets, shorter bullets with a clear understanding of what you did that way rather than long drawn out sentences with lots of clauses and lots of adverbs and things like that. Again, something I need to work on and I think Andrea did a really good job of highlighting how three bullets can be stronger than one really long one sometimes. I loved her before and after examples, and as I listened to her speak, the picture that she was painting in the after examples were very different than what you got from the from the before, which are the benefits of the recommendation she was making. The key point for me was I liked her emphasis on just thinking about the strategy. When you sit down to write your resume. Where do you want to go? What accomplishments do you have that will help support that case, and how do you document it through data or numbers or brand names? And being as specific as you can and above all, it's not a time to be humble and that's hard. For many of us - we're taught to be modest. I know people from the Midwest like me originally, but just people in general was a good quality to have but as Andrea says, you don't want to be humble when it comes time to write your resume.
Mac Prichard
Good. Well, thank you both and thank you Andrea for joining us here in the studio. And thank you our listeners for joining us for today's episode of Find Your Dream Job. If you like what you hear, please sign up for our free weekly newsletter. In every issue, we give you the key points of that week's show. We also include links to all the resources mentioned and you get a transcript of the full episode. If you subscribe to the newsletter now, we'll send you our jobs secret checklist in one easy to use file. We show you all the steps you need to take to find a great job. Get your free newsletter and checklist today. Go to Macslist.org/podcast. Join us next Wednesday when our special guest will be Julie Braun. She'll explain how you can make the most of your personal brand in a job search. Until next time, thanks for letting us help you find your dream job.
